i feel bad for pinkston...

hark44 · Kick Asser

i feel bad for pinkston...

GoBearsGalason · Head Dick

i still think he's getting a raw deal and a lot of undue negative exposure for something he had no control over...

What do you mean specifically? If you mean he had no control over his involuntary Deer on the headlights Brace myself and tighten up bullsh1t he pulls when a safety is withing 5 feet of him, then I would agree. The guy, flat out, is a skinny injury prone puss in the pants. Starting spot on another team? He couldn't start on the Bears. Todd. This is Football, maybe you should try Baseball...oh yeah those hard balls go really fast and hurt really bad if you get hit by them. Maybe Run his quick scared a$$ back to the closest college and finish his degree?

Geshtahl · Half A Man

The Wikipedia thing was priceless though! Did you check out the "Pass to Pinky" video game that they had linked at the bottom of the page? I laughed untill I cried.
The whole "media is being unfair" argument is laughable because several atheletes have been lambasted in the media, does the media pressure seem to bother T.O.? Not hardly. If media pressure is too much for Pinky then he should choose another line of work. Don't tell me, he took blow off classes in college which left him with no tangible real-world skills outside of football right? Well then, in that case, I suggest Wal-Mart. I have no sympathy for NFL players who (most likely) got a pass through college while others had to study for their degrees. In my opinion, these guys deserve to get run through the wringer, to an extent. And no, the media was not too harsh on poor old Todd. Life was.

The fact remains: The NFL (and its fans) respect strength. Chrystal Chandelier and Todd Stinkston picked the wrong buissness in which to flinch.

User Name · Head Dick

i wouldn't want "Pinky" on my team

saturn11 · Head Dick

hark, you're a birds fan, and a model citizen for your sympathetic view of this, Pinky's darkest day.

butchaknow, you make your own bed in this business, and clearly, if the birds thought highly of him, they would have stuck with him, and cut one of the other marginal guys in the mediocre remainder of their receiving corps.

the list of guys they've displayed incredible patience with is long:

they rehabbed derrick burgess through two injuries and two seasons without playing a down.

correll buckhalter has rehabbed through three injuries.

j.r. reed has been given every chance to come back from an injury that doctors thought would end his career.

thomas tapeh broke his leg where it joins his frikkin' HIP, and he's a running back, but they've stuck by him, too.

bruce perry, who was nicked and injury prone before he ever arrived, but they have stuck with him, too.

seen in this light, pinky's release must really mean that the birds braintrust takes an extremely dim view of his response to the injury he sustained last year.

and that, my friend, IS a part of this that he could control. if he responded to his injury the same way that any of the above named guys did, he'd likely still be here.

Geshtahl · Half A Man

Wikipedia has already changed the entry for Todd Stinkston. There is now no mention of the nicknames, although the game (Pass to Pinky) is still there.

timmy1 · Mr. Big Nuts

ok, a couple of things-- your team just released a player who by all accounts wasn't a difference maker for one (stallworth) who potentially (if his hamstrings hold up) definitally is--i'm a UT BIG ORANGE GRAD--this is where worth went to school--you may or may not already know this--but let me tell ya, seeing him play in person at NEYLAND STADIUM spanning 3 seasons-- he CAN PLAY. second, contrary to the so called experts of the nfl--the eagles seem to have the edge in the east--the giants , skins and cowboys all have been over hyped to the point that makes one want to hurl. their tailback buckhalter if healthy is your x-factor-- agreed??

hark44 · Kick Asser

im not saying him getting released or traded is unfair.... just all this stinkston revival ****... i mean... it was really one time that he got scared... and it was a while ago... sure everyone was on him about it then... myself included... my point is people stopped caring about it or thinking about it bc it was so long ago, case in point, that lenny audio clip is really really old... florio only just recently found it however, and since he has a vendetta against lenny (and im not defending lenny) all this stinkston stuff comes back stronger than it ever was... check out the replays, the stats.. you cant deny hes a very good outside the hashmarks reciever...(before he got hurt)

hark44 · Kick Asser

and yes, im happy about the stallworth trade... and i like his chances better than pinkston... this isnt a football fan thing... just an observation... usually u **** up once and theresa statute of limitations on how long u hear about it.. here in philly that stinkston stuff stopped a while ago... all im sayng, and nobody here can disagree.. is that if lenny wasn't crazy and florio didnt hate lenny, this wouldnt be coming back... thats what he had no control over...

ArmitronTB · Half A Man

I have to agree that Pinkston is getting a bit of a raw deal. Frankly, they likely released Pinkston because #1 they replaced his deep speed with Stallworth, a more complete receiver and #2 because they feel that he'll never be right after rupturing his achilles, a very difficult injury to come back from especially when your biggest asset is deep speed.

He simply is mostly an outside the hashmarks player whose skill set does not work well in the inside because he's more fast that quick when healthy. There are plenty of Pinkston highlights to go along with his bad rap. In 2003 he was on the receiving end of a roughly 60 yard strike on the first play of a monday nighter afainst miami in whiuch he beat the corner and safety up the seam.

Every team wants at least one of their receivers to be able to threaten defenses by being able to get deep and that is why, if healthy, he could be considered a starter or definitely a guy who would play on the outside in 3 receiver sets.

Also, he had like 4 receptions for 80 yards, including a beautiful snag to set up a scorer in the 1st half before he left with dehydration/cramps which happens to a lot of first time super bowl guys b/c they're so pumped about playing in the superbowl and pretty play themselves to exhaustion too early. Pinkston SB snag

As far as the eagles doubting pinkston, they extended his rookie contract in 2002 because they felt he was going to be a solid contributor in the passing game well into the future. The only thing is this achilles tendon injury really good be pretty much the end of his career. No one is saying he's the greatest player of all time, just that there have been plenty of worse players to put on an nfl uniform.

saturn11 · Head Dick

hark,

i'm not ready to concede that Pinky is a "very good outside the hashmarks wide receiver." even on sideline routes, he was only ever able to show up against bad corners in single coverage. good corners jumped his routes and jammed him to the point where he couldn't get off. remember the carolina game? one of those corners was a bench-warmer not TWO GAMES before that NFCCG.

and you know the quick hitch where donovan throws it to pinky on the line of scrimmage and he's supposed to take it up the sidelines? in philly, everybody thinks that's a poorly designed play because it never works. but have you seen other teams run it? it's always good for about 5 yards. it doesn't work when pinky runs it, however, he's good for about a yard.

he had his only effective year when westbrook and t.o. were healthy and drew most of the attention away from him.

but for argument's sake, let's say he IS good outside the hashmarks. what your description suggests about him is that he's NOT good at THE REST of the things a receiver is supposed to do. "very good outside the hashmarks" really means he's an "incomplete WR".

Is there room on the roster for a one dimensional guy? After displaying patience with his 2000 2nd round pick, Andy Reid has decided that the answer is "no".

As for the rest of it, sure, IF lenny wasn't crazy, and IF florio didn't hate lenny....

But there's one more part: IF Pinky hadn't gone yellow so often...

...this wouldn't be coming back.

nobody'd be ripping Pasta-belly if he was backing a receiver who didn't chicken out so often.

again, hark, the Mayor of Pinkerton DID have control over that.

-- Edited by saturn11 at 18:43, 2006-08-30

ArmitronTB · Half A Man

Pinkston's only good year was 04? I disagree, 2002 he had 60 catches for 798 yards and 7 TDs. That's a pretty solid year for most nfl receivers. In fact the only good thing about pinkston's year in 2004 was his average yards per catch at 18ypc. No one will contest that he's not a complete receiver but many of the game's second tier players are not complete players, thbat's why they are second tier.

No one complains when Antonio Gates cant block out an OLB on a running play and LT is dropped for a 3 yard loss. Even the NFLs most dynamic, excitingplayers have deficiencies. Most players cant do everything well, its a simple fact of life.

And the 5 yard hitch you're talking about, I've seen him run that well, but you really want a quick guy running that so they can escape the tackle of the CB and scamper of the sideline for more yards.

hark44 · Kick Asser

i like this one...
dallas jump ball

or

crazy speed

saturn11 · Head Dick

ArmitronTB wrote:

Pinkston's only good year was 04? I disagree, 2002 he had 60 catches for 798 yards and 7 TDs. That's a pretty solid year for most nfl receivers. In fact the only good thing about pinkston's year in 2004 was his average yards per catch at 18ypc. No one will contest that he's not a complete receiver but many of the game's second tier players are not complete players, thbat's why they are second tier.

No one complains when Antonio Gates cant block out an OLB on a running play and LT is dropped for a 3 yard loss. Even the NFLs most dynamic, excitingplayers have deficiencies. Most players cant do everything well, its a simple fact of life.

And the 5 yard hitch you're talking about, I've seen him run that well, but you really want a quick guy running that so they can escape the tackle of the CB and scamper of the sideline for more yards.

Okay, just so we're not like the blind leading the stupid, here are Pinky's career stats.

Year Games Rec. Yds. YPK TDs

2000 phi | 16 | 10 181 18.1 0 |
| 2001 phi | 15 | 42 586 14.0 4 |
| 2002 phi | 15 | 60 798 13.3 7 |
| 2003 phi | 16 | 36 575 16.0 2 |
| 2004 phi | 16 | 36 676 18.8 1 |

Fair enough. I thought his numbers in 2004 were better. but sheesh, why weren't they??? One solid year from a 2nd round pick? Disappointing indeed. No wonder Reid said "no mas, Pinky."

and believe me, I'm not a hater. i wanted to see him thrive. and he seems like a nice kid.

but please...

equating antonio gates' blocking lapses with Pinky's egregious displays of girliness in the face of physical contact is...well...fine...you can have Pinkston. I'll take Gates. Tomlinson seems to be doing fine.

as for that hitch play, i'll bet you any amount of money that if we went to NFL films, and found every time the Birds ran it Pinky's way, we'd find a handful where he advanced the ball 5 yards.

also, answer me this: have you ever seen a receiver display fear or physical contact as often as Pinky?

-- Edited by saturn11 at 19:22, 2006-08-30

hark44 · Kick Asser

scared

no i haven't... i've never seen any nfl reciever, cower from a pass like that... but that was the only such incident.... people act like he does that all the time... major pussy move and sure its inexusable...but theres a differnce between that and his other problem... the past he also had a problem with dropping passes but i dont think it was a fear thing, he was just thinking too far ahead of the catch, i.e.: how he was going to outrun, outfake the deep safety, etc... i do that too every so often... ur supposed to focus on catching the ball and nothing else... but many times, u get caught up in thoughts like, "okay i gotta turn into the catch just so, so i can immediately spin off the hit and get 20 more yards..." i thought he had corrected that a lot tho just before his injury.... dont confuse alligator hands with being a pussy... its just trying to do too much...

-- Edited by hark44 at 19:45, 2006-08-30

saturn11 · Head Dick

sheesh, dude, i'm wondering if we shouldn't start calling you hark-squerelli.

if pinky's the receiver you say he is, then why didn't the birds keep him, and release hank baskett, jabbar gaffney, darnarien mccants...etc.?

and you suggest that we shouldn't "confuse alligator hands with being a pussy?" that's a new one.

look. I've said all along I respect your even handed view of the situation.

but don't get carried away. Pinky was a HUGE disappointment as a second round pick who went yellow often enough for it to become part of his rep. He turned yellow more often than you suggest. When most of the media and fans all say they see the same thing, it's more likely than not that what they're seeing is *real*.

hark44 · Kick Asser

they released him bc hes hurt and prolly will never bring the same speed again... 2nd round disappointment... yes... have i ever really loved him, no...is he amazing no... but when he was healthy he was a starting caliber reciever... which a lot of people here dont seem to believe, he did what the eagles needed him to do (be a deep threat), and after i realized, he was theonly guy we had for such plays, i had to reconcile his shortcomings and understand who he was as a player.... now that hes gone, im not gonna do a 180 and just call him a pussy and a nobody... im just sick of the herd mentality here... sure hes not a premier recieer, but u'd have to be retarded to say that if properly rehabed u dont think pinkston could start for some of the teams in the NFL... thats basically all i need to drop it... is for someone to admit that....

saturn11 · Head Dick

well, duder, i won't leave a fellow birds fan hangin'. i'm not tryin' to get you to "drop it" either.

and i'm sure as $hite givin' you a hard time on this one.

but he DIDN'T do "what the birds needed him to do". Reid's playbook isn't written to accommodate a receiver who is only good with the deep ball sideline route. He sends guys all over the field. Your defense of Pinky as a good sideline wideout is actually an argument AGAINST his value to the team. It makes an entire offense easier to defend when one of the wideouts is only effective against single coverage on sideline routes. i mean, SURE, we live in the age of specialization, but COME ON, man...let's get serious, here, okay?

if all you're trying to say is that he could start for some teams in the nfl, you're not saying much.

but seriously, i'd be interested in hearing who you think would find him useful (if properly rehabbed...and remember, even THAT's a question mark: his RESPONSE to his injury seems to be in line with the...ermmm...less than masculine approach he took to catching passes in traffic).

Grave Digger · Head Dick

timmy1 wrote:

ok, a couple of things-- your team just released a player who by all accounts wasn't a difference maker for one (stallworth) who potentially (if his hamstrings hold up) definitally is--i'm a UT BIG ORANGE GRAD--this is where worth went to school--you may or may not already know this--but let me tell ya, seeing him play in person at NEYLAND STADIUM spanning 3 seasons-- he CAN PLAY. second, contrary to the so called experts of the nfl--the eagles seem to have the edge in the east--the giants , skins and cowboys all have been over hyped to the point that makes one want to hurl. their tailback buckhalter if healthy is your x-factor-- agreed??

I 100% agree on Stallworth. I remember going to UT games and seeing him play. I've had many years of enjoyment going to Neyland seeing some of the greats. Manning was one of my favorites to see.

ArmitronTB · Half A Man

Saturn... it'd be mighty difficult to find a history of any nfl players, specifically wideouts, suffering a complete rupture of the achilles tendon successfully returning to form within 1 season. And since you don't know what rehab for such an injury entails or how hard he actually worked at coming back it seems a tad unfair to judge him on mere assumption. Think about the achilles tendon and how it plays a part in every way the foot moves, it seems like it might be worse than tearing an ACL, but I'm not a doctor so I digress.

As far as why the Eagles cut him, beyond the fact that he might never regain his deep speed. But even if he had such speed still, he doesnt have a role with the addition of Stallworth who is simply a better, more complete receiver than Pinkston, plus Stallworth is also known as deep threat similar to Pinkston. Next is Reggie Brown, a capable guy with some quicks who can use that to create separation all over the field, yoiu want him to be on the field and continue to develop. Next is Hank Baskett/ Jasson Avant, bigger more physical receivers built to work out of the slot, an area Pinkston's body type and skill set is not as valuable. The 4th receiver on the field will likely be greg lewis, who like pinkston is incredibly fast and excellent on deep routes, but lewis is younger and cheaper so it makes sense to give the 4th slot, a role pinkston could easily fill, exploiting a safety or dime CB in 4 receiver sets. But as I said, its almost always smarter to go with the younger, cheaper player without the past injuries.

You also indicted Pinkston as a liability in the offense because he could only run specific routes. However, he did run all the routes recquired of the offense, catching passes on the short crossing patterns and running the deep post. Albeit he was clearly more effective on certain patterns, an NFL corner cant cheat on specific routes because he clearly runs all the routes and will beat you with his speed if you try to guess on a route and guess wrong. So they have to respect the idea of him running an In, Slant, Post as well as the fly, hitch and out. AND if they respect that I dont see how that belays and advantage to the defense or handicaps the offense.

Just because he didnt create big plays off slants and shorter routes doesnt mean he was completely ineffective, not everyone can be a TO or a Steve Smith and consistently beat defenses inside, outside and deep.

As I explained above, with the trade for Stallworth he suddenly became replaceable, even if the injury is inconsequential to his future abilities. Todd Pinkston was no longer "skilled" enough to be a starter receiver on the Philadelphia Eagles so they cut him loose.

A few teams I think Pinkston, if healtrhy could start for: Cleveland Browns (Northcut is not really a great player and has never exploited his speed to burn defenses consistently) Houstan Texans (Johnson and Moulds are essentially the same player, just young and old, they could use more speed on the field at receiver) aGreen Bay (Driver is a solid 1 but they have basically no one behind him and the way Farve loves to loft it deep and pray for a miracle, Pinkston's deep speed would be an asset)

Plus, for you to say that STARTING at receiver in the NFL does not say much... then what would it take for you to see pinkston as even serviceable as an NFL starting wideout? All we're looking for is someone to acknowledge that despite his shortcomings and weaknesses he is not to worst receiver to ever start for an NFL franchise and that he had a modicum of talent/ability.

Vanni9283 · Head Dick

KUDOS to the EAGLES for FINALLY realizing that they needed a WR, and I am ABSOLUTELY thrilled about the Stallworth trade. And I have ZERO regrets about the Stinkston cut either! My fondest memory of him will be his absoultely SPECTACULAR performance in the NFC Championship game against Carolina, where he literally got MUGGED by a 5'8'' DB, and the legitmate excuse that he gave for it in his interview during the post-game show on Comcast SportsNet (an excuse which EAGLES fans had great sympathy for...lol!!!)!

saturn11 · Head Dick

My GOD, Armitron. You're quite invested in Pinky's reputation. It's actually kind of creeping me out. Seriously, though, thanks for the detailed post. Much respect.

Regarding his rehab, admittedly, I'm connecting the dots: he's behind schedule (prognosis: ready by minicamp); Reid never sells his players out, but his omissions are usually pretty revealing, and before cutting him, Reid never once praised Pinkston on how hard he's worked to get back. Guys tend to rehab the same way the play. Pinkston seems to be no exception. I could be wrong.

Your answer to my question of why they cut him instead of one of the others is precisely why I asked. I agree with your answer completely. It makes my argument for me. The other guys are more valuable to the team despite being undrafted rookie free agents. They can do things like go over the middle.

I will not concede that Pinkston was good at catching balls on crossing routes in traffic. I've watched almost every play of every Iggs game since Silky Sullivan was their tailback. You can't sneak that suggestion past me.

You all but admit he's not good for much except the deep ball, but you refuse to concede that this makes the Eagles offense easier to defend. I can't find the logic in this, and your writing becomes a bit unclear where you explain it. Evidence from the games suggests otherwise anyway.

Corners have been jumping his routes no matter their direction since he came into the league. See the 2003 NFCCG vs. Carolina for the most egregious (but hardly singular) example. That was by a benchwarmer.

Your list of the teams that could use him is thought out, but none of them are really convincing suggestions. I hadn't really thought about it, which is why I was asking.

there's other stuff, too...but i don't have the time or the energy.

We'll see if someone goes after him, either in the next few days, or once he's properly 'habbed. Only tiime will tell. It'll be interesting to see what becomes of ol' Pin-ke-mon.

-- Edited by saturn11 at 00:28, 2006-08-31

saturn11 · Head Dick

Vanni9283 wrote:

...the legitmate excuse that he gave for it in his interview during the post-game show on Comcast SportsNet (an excuse which EAGLES fans had great sympathy for...lol!!!)!

which was....that he "lacked focus that day".

it's a statement that always suggested to me that on some level he didn't "get" the game of football, or what it takes in heart to "get it done".

hark, he's exactly the kind of player philly fans DON'T like rooting for.

we like scrappers.

hark44 · Kick Asser

i like scrappers more than anyone... but philly fans despite popular belief, as a whole dont give a **** about whether a player is a scapper or not... look at T.O... we worshiped him(bc we were winning)... i was just watching some dvds of games from the super bowl season (the good T.O. year), and he never blocked, ever... and if he wasn;t the number one option on a play.. he wuldnt even ****in run.. it was ridiculous.... im not on pinkstons nuts like ur making it seem... i dont give a **** where he goes or how he does... im just being fair... pinkston doesnt tell us hes amazing... he is what he is, lets just stop talking about how bad he sucks... u know how many draft dissapointments there are that we dont talk about?... someone like freddie mitchell(a 1st rounder), who is much worse than pinkston and yet told everyone that he was god in cleats, and now cant even wear an nfl uniform bc hes awful... gets nothing... nobody even talks about mitchell, bc hes a non-factor... pinkston, in the grand scheme of STARTING WR's, is also a non factor, but is less derserving of the lashing everyone is giving him bc unlike mitchell he never brags or talks ****... plus hes way better than mitchell..

saturn11 · Head Dick

you have officially entered the Hark-sta-belly zone with this latest post.

relax, dude.

i approached this whole thing by praising you for being able to see the human side of it. what has happened to pinkston is sad. i gave you that at the start.

but sheesh, you're going down with the ship.

by bringing up scrappers, i'm referring to a long line of beloved players in philly who showed feistiness, played with their hearts on their sleeves, regardless of skill level: Clarkie, Rose, Bob Kelly...you know, THAT type of guy. That's the philly fans favorite kind of player. but we're allowed to like other kinds of players, too: t.o. may not have been that kind of player, but he was a HUGE acquisition for the Birds. Are we not allowed to like him because he's not a "scrapper"?

and unlike the pink, t.o. WANTED the ball in crunch time. t.o. craved playing in big games, so much so that he jeopardized his career to play in the super bowl. If Pinkerton had that injury, do you think he would've appeared in the Soop? Not bloody likely.

and please, don't go making stuff up: T.O.'s out-of-control ME-isms may resemble Randy Moss, but his game didn't: when he was with the Birds, he finished plays, blocked, and played a physical game. And desipite not being the slot guy, he DID go over the middle, and never shied from a ball.

and why bring freddie mitchell into this? it's not as if he wasn't hated by philly fans, too. pinkston and freddie mitchell have BOTH been the objects of our derision at various points in time for different reasons.

believe me, i hate the herd mentality, too, especially here in Philly, where lots of people have been brainwashed into thinking that the Eagles are cheap (haven't heard that one since the Stallworth trade, huh?). so this isn't about going along with the prevaling mentality.

Pinkston had one solid year, as Armitron pointed out. The numbers in those other years are just SAD. So he didn't put up numbers. And it's not as if he was contributing positive intangibles...it's not as if you can say he inspired his teammates with his gutsy style of play.

the birds gave him EVERY chance to succeed long after many other teams would have cut the chord (after the Carolina disaster).

this is the kind of guy you just DON'T WANT on your football team, hangdog face and all.

-- Edited by saturn11 at 08:45, 2006-08-31

JetBlackNinja · Head Dick

I'll take him!

If Branch is going to carry his hold-out into the regular season the Pats are too thin at receiver. Besides Belichick and the current Patriots have a hard-nosed style that might just start to rum off on the guy.

Either way we have like $15 million in cap room, and can afford to take a flyer on the guy.

saturn11 · Head Dick

yeah, with no Branch, you guys are thin enough to want Pinky. that's the first idea i've heard that makes sense.

but does a softy like Pink-tone become "hard nosed" in new england?

idunno, ninj...seems unlikely. you haven't had to live with this guy. his jersey was usually cleaner after the game, knowudduhmean?

tomorrow's the deadline w/ branch, right?

good luck widdat.

JetBlackNinja · Head Dick

saturn11 wrote:

yeah, with no Branch, you guys are thin enough to want Pinky. that's the first idea i've heard that makes sense.

but does a softy like Pink-tone become "hard nosed" in new england?

idunno, ninj...seems unlikely. you haven't had to live with this guy. his jersey was usually cleaner after the game, knowudduhmean?

tomorrow's the deadline w/ branch, right?

good luck widdat.

First off, fu(k Branch. If he wants to come in and play this season fine, but then he has to go. I wouldn't want the patriots to pay him anywhere near what he is asking for.

As for wether or not Pinkston would become a better player? Who knows. It would be a 1 season experiment that would either work (Keith Traylor) or not (Dwayne Starks). Either way he would come cheap, he knows how to play in the NFL, and if he blows.... he'll be gone as fast as Starks was.

Either way, I'll take him.

-- Edited by JetBlackNinja at 13:39, 2006-08-31

saturn11 · Head Dick

Pinky to the Vikes for the leauge minimum.

Of course.

Armitron, how could we NOT have seen that one coming?

Ninja, the Branch saga has taken an ugly turn.

Now he's got a yarstick for his market value. a real man would get his a$$ on the field and try to prove he's worth even more.

-- Edited by saturn11 at 19:12, 2006-09-01